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Post by stevedtrm on Apr 27, 2016 15:22:17 GMT
Integrity, for me, in relation to honor, is more about correctness and strength.
There is an optimal point when if you increase your honesty any further then you begin to threaten your own interests. At that point, if you oincrease your honesty any further, you've reduced your integrity, as you've failed to consider how to act optimally in your own interests.
I realise that this is a moral egoist standpoint, but happy to dicuss with others who diagree.
I want infinite integrity, and only optimal honesty and honor.
A person with maximum integrity is more worthy of respect and less worthy of trust.
Steven.
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Post by Tundra on Apr 27, 2016 16:16:07 GMT
Honor is a dangerous value. It is an atavism. An expired civilisational tool. It welded groups together with imaginary values and it had the power and grasp that nowadays corporations have over people. Not surprising that often times it had religious connotations. Glorified "what will people think". A path to self destruction.
hon·or (ŏn′ər)
n.
1. High respect, as that shown for special merit; recognition or esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate; the place of honor at the table.
2.
a. Great privilege: I have the honor of presenting the governor.
b. Good name; reputation: I must defend my honor.l
c. A source or cause of credit: was an honor to the profession.
b. A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms.
c. A woman's chastity or reputation for chastity.
Noteworthy that while some of the values in the list above are useful, like integrity, or reputation of a great scientist etc---when it comes ot women it only meant one thing: that she does not use her vagina. Because the woman was not allowed to be a human, but an ovary. Honor killings and all that... It is a despicable concept of the primitive humans and it should be discarded.
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Post by Tundra on Apr 27, 2016 16:18:53 GMT
BTW I think you suffer with disambiguation-mania. Integrity and honor really can be discussed on same thread. Too many threads around.
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Post by Tundra on Apr 27, 2016 16:25:24 GMT
Integrity, for me, in relation to honor, is more about correctness and strength. There is an optimal point when if you increase your honesty any further then you begin to threaten your own interests. At that point, if you oincrease your honesty any further, you've reduced your integrity, as you've failed to consider how to act optimally in your own interests. I realise that this is a moral egoist standpoint, but happy to dicuss with others who diagree. I want infinite integrity, and only optimal honesty and honor. A person with maximum integrity is more worthy of respect and less worthy of trust. Steven. Honor and honesty were never employed to be useful to the person; they were traditionally a form of invisible mind control and sanitisation of groups. Honor suicides were and possibly still are popular in Japan; honor killings in the Middle East to get rid of women because of their perceived sexual depravity; that Whittingdale guy who was "tainted" in the eyes of the press because he dated a dominatrix; etc. Worthless moral judgments meant to keep the herd in line. These values are supposed to be group think, imaginary values that regulate and control the group; they're not really for the benefit of the individual; and traditionally and still today, disastruous for the individual. |
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Post by stevedtrm on Apr 27, 2016 21:08:29 GMT
I broadly agree with what you've said but then i think you underestimate the value of honesty in dealing with others. In most cases its vital as a lubricant, even in terms of selfishness. Its unusually deep, rare and desperate situations that legitimise deceit. To form a group activity, one must be scrupuoulously honest and sometimes even democratic. Which, of course, is not quite the same thing.
That said, therefore, whenever i imagine a group activity, i think i always begin from an assumption of total honesty from all concerned, but remain alert for situations that might lead to dishonesty.
Its a formula that works well, and in fact its the only forumula, but then you have to enhance transparency to ensure that not only are you being honest but you can also be verified to be honest by doubters who arent always competent to detect honesty unless is very much in their face.
Honesty + transparency are how irrationally and emotionally suspicious groups get things done.
Hence the ethos of this forum.
Steven
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Post by Tundra on Apr 27, 2016 23:20:28 GMT
Erm, of course.... HONESTY and HONOR are different nouns. They mean different things. They only have in common the fact of being moral values.
Honesty is playing the game fair for yourself. Honor is playing to benefit the group because submission to the group. Honesty is modern and simple strategy; honor is decrepit and dangerous primitive imaginary entity ("what people think") ; like "God".
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