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Post by stevedtrm on Apr 19, 2016 12:03:12 GMT
"Right" and "right-wing" is one of those ugly terms that means too many different things to too many different people.
I propose here to rule that it is always interpreted as "opposition to social democracy" rather than "conservatism", which usually refers to refers to "traditionalism" which isnt really what right wing generally means in the minds of those advocating it in my opinion.
Left wing, will of course, refer to "social democrat", unless specified otherwise.
Until someone opposes this, this will be the rule on ths forum.
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Naturally, since Corbyn and Labour are broadly social democrats, a person who is confirmed as right wing meaning "opposed to social democracy" is generally in opposition to momentum and Labour and corbyn and the majority opinion and ethos on this board.
Such people are potentially tactically incompatible with social democrats, Labour and momentum.
Personally, i'm not a social democrat because i decry the ignorance and apthy of the masses who always constitute the large majority of the public, but I recognise the importance of using social democracy to advance personal goals when necessary. Therefore i wish to advance social democracy as a tactic, rather than an end goal or an overarching strategy, and therefore I am not tactically incompatible with it but one of its fiercest proponents. On the grounds of self-defence.
Steven.
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Post by bloodemperortim on Apr 20, 2016 11:42:53 GMT
Left and left-wing are also loaded terms prior to clarification. Though admittedly, there are fewer people to consider them ugly.
In your opinion, what does it mean? To me, right-wing refers to a psychological predisposition which is obvious in someone's personality, same as left-wing. The former is more masculine, the latter more feminine, and everything that comes from that. To be right-wing is to be more concerned with strength, edifying suffering and an aesthetic or spiritual ideal, whereas to be left-wing is to be more concerned with the weak, material comfort, and material and social ideal. The right-wing I'm concerned with is the intellectual elite, not the lower levels, so for example white nationalists are just trying to protect their genetic capital and have a sort of egalitarianism particular to whites because they're of the same genetic stock, whereas a right-wing elitist is concerned with meritocracy, ie, the best in all things, avoiding decline, not just tribalism. In fact, it's interesting that both the left and the right appear to want the same sort of thing by different means: a world where there are no poor or suffering people. It's just that to the left, this means redistribution even if impractical, and nominal 'life' even when the spirit has gone out of it. Whereas to the right it means that everyone has become strong and a victim fetish is no longer something to be concerned with at all; suffering still remains, but it is of an edifying sort, not pitiable.
I'm not totally opposed to social democracy as a tactic, and I would need to know more particulars about precisely what is the goal here. Labour installed - then what? Social programmes preserved despite a dead economy? Paving the way for an extreme-left takeover? There are many ways it could go awry.
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Post by Tundra on Apr 20, 2016 23:26:30 GMT
POWER vs EMPATHY.Follow link for poorly written but edifying account of neuro study. "Right wing" is doped on selfish egomania and "left wing" is doped on mercy and collectiveness. When one is active in the brain, the other can't. The world needs both to dance historically (Hegel dialectics)-- they are two equally creative/progressive forces in the world. Selfishness is how individual organisms be, and hippie collectiveness is how the whole of the organism glues together. Yin and yang and all that. Currently the world is getting fuck all of the latter. Right never wants the same as left : but because it deals with the intricacies and delicacies of Power, it knows how to lie to the masses where it needs to. Also, the left never ends up in power unperverted: it is the mechanism of Power that makes the bleeding heart an eventual tyrant because power corrupts and power is essentially right wing (Blair) Since humanity evolved as "us vs them" warrior spirit--we are the survivors of the defeaters--and all that which is desirable in society is produced by power (embodied by civilizations and empires) it follows that right wing is necessarily almost always in charge and difficult to challenge as it has a lot invested in its status and the tools and skill to keep it. Another poorly written but significant study that illustrates why progress is necessarily an outcome of conservative vs liberal. One is the force of the present defending its fruits of past wars, another is the force of the future looking onto new horizons. Note: females do not necessarily think left (Thatcher, Clinton). They may get chosen by men based on that criterion cuz men need selfless domestic serfs, basically. But there is nothing biologically politically left about women unless it relates to their kids. Example: anyone's mum. No care in the world for the children in China dying in the process of making iPhones, but she does want the best for her progeny. I know a lot of these "women behind the man" where the man was some atrocious dictator. They just didn't have the guns. But technologically that's not what makes the difference anymore.
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Post by stevedtrm on Apr 20, 2016 23:56:08 GMT
If the right is sadistic and wants suffering it is only because it evolved that desire, and not supernatural malignancy. And in a world with such darwinian physics, its hardly surprising. But yes, i have to diagree with Tim there - i dont think the right wants the same as the left because the right understanmds the need and desire for coercion and oppression to generate wealth
Steven
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Post by Tundra on Apr 21, 2016 0:11:58 GMT
Remember your William Hague lookalike Tory pal in the pub? you said the poor get poorer and he laughs hysterically : " so what?!", him and the vicar. And applause. So I believe they are more psychopathic than most. The "conservatives".
Actually, all the technology, "progress", "rights" and "liberties" people hail as measures of how amazing history is to people: are in fact SYMPTOMS of their own slavery. Because slavery is actually a very efficient system and all periods in history that are lauded and worshiped in museums etc. relied on it heavily. So to be at the top of an extremely complex human pyramid you have to be 1. very very intelligent. 2. very very lucid about what this all is. There is no way in hell the Tories are pulling their hair in some office because look, they thought austerity would help but--goddamit!-- it failed... they know what they're doing, and they know how to spin. Funfair magic comes a posteriori to appease the fool.
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Post by bloodemperortim on Apr 21, 2016 16:45:31 GMT
The comment threading on here is terrible. The best comment threading and thus the best platform for discussion is reddit, perhaps a private subreddit there would be preferable. Anyway, to mara (comment #3): First, pleased to meet you . I agree with lines 1 and 2. However, it seems to me that much of the current plight is owed mostly to excessive boundary dissolution and a total phobia of exerting strength, and the left is leading the way. Overly concerned with consumption and pathological altruism, the guilt button jammed in place, the obsession with egalitarianism, anti-realism and virtue signalling running amok. Well, the same is true of the left of course. Everyone operates through will-to-power, but cowards conceal that fact. I do not believe that the left never ends up in power unperverted, they very often do. It is only whether one is honest enough to admit that the various expression of leftism are indeed that. I have heard enough excuses from the left about various forms of leftism to make me vomit - the tired old cliche that 'it wasn't true communism!' first among them. I would respect the left more if they admitted that the Soviet Union was leftist, instead of this cowardly evasion, for example. They wield power as much as anyone. All attempts to impose norms against an existing order are forceful, intneded for particular groups to lose out. But this commitment to appearing as gentle doves even when mass murderers is unworthy of respect. And so on to the snake-like justificationism. Also, Blair was not right-wing, but rather a neocon. It was probably a form of entryism, but all those Labour voters still voted for him, so... The neocons were not right-wing, but rather a group of powerful Jews who wanted to wage wars advantageous to Israel. So in America they glommed onto the Republicans, and in Britain, New Labour. Only the war part was ostensibly right wing (despite everyone across the true right from Alex Jones to white nationalists being opposed to them) and none of their other policies. All about that foreign policy. Thankfully. Although, that's changing now, what with these Tories in power. Who should be on the end of a gallery of ropes, weak trash that they are. Well, I'm just going off statistics and demonstrated preference. A right-wing woman is a rare thing. When they do appear, almost all women instinctively hate their guts. This is how you know feminism isn't really about female empowerment in general, but rather a socialistic type of woman. Otherwise Ayn Rand should be a feminist icon. You know, I never did quite square how it is that feminists are attempting to promote their own self-interest, and when a woman comes along who promotes self-interestedness, they go apeshit. (Actually I'm playing, of course it's obvious).
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Post by bloodemperortim on Apr 21, 2016 16:54:11 GMT
If the right is sadistic and wants suffering it is only because it evolved that desire, and not supernatural malignancy. And in a world with such darwinian physics, its hardly surprising. But yes, i have to diagree with Tim there - i dont think the right wants the same as the left because the right understanmds the need and desire for coercion and oppression to generate wealth Steven I don't think being sadistic is a rightist trait, but just strength in general. My own intuitions don't lead to wanton cruelty, but rather honour, giving others the chance to be honest, to lift themselves up, to become stronger, to actually solve their weakness rather than valorising it. I too have weaknesses, but the only salve is greater strength, in whatever form. The right understands the need and desire to use coercion and oppression to generate wealth, that's true, but so does the left. Unless the tactics of revolution and vanguardism are really sweety-pie peaceful pony pageant lovely flower stickers and not calls for massacre of a particular class. They most certainly use coercion and oppression of their enemies, if they ever want to win. The difference is they try to conceal that fact outwardly, and use justificationary nonsense to support it. It's true that they're terrible at generating wealth, though, since they're hopeless at economics. Then again, the far right aren't much better. That's where the middle class come in.
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Post by bloodemperortim on Apr 21, 2016 17:01:14 GMT
Remember your William Hague lookalike Tory pal in the pub? you said the poor get poorer and he laughs hysterically : " so what?!", him and the vicar. And applause. So I believe they are more psychopathic than most. The "conservatives". Actually, all the technology, "progress", "rights" and "liberties" people hail as measures of how amazing history is to people: are in fact SYMPTOMS of their own slavery. Because slavery is actually a very efficient system and all periods in history that are lauded and worshiped in museums etc. relied on it heavily. So to be at the top of an extremely complex human pyramid you have to be 1. very very intelligent. 2. very very lucid about what this all is. There is no way in hell the Tories are pulling their hair in some office because look, they thought austerity would help but--goddamit!-- it failed... they know what they're doing, and they know how to spin. Funfair magic comes a posteriori to appease the fool. COMMENT DELETED UNDER RULE 1.1.1 .... but what interests me is that all interest groups think this way. The poor certainly have their vindictive fantasies about what they would do with the middle and upper class. If they saw the headline 'Billionaire falls off a cliff' they would most likely laugh and applaud. There is no inherent virtue in people just because of the class they belong to.
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Post by Tundra on Apr 26, 2016 14:32:52 GMT
Hi Tim, nice to meet you. I can't help but think you idealise the right ideology in a fascist slant: masculinity, honor, meritocracy. I believe singular people and especially thinkers (Nietzsche) can be like that and it's beautiful. I don't think that applies to politics and policy. Every principle and ideological purity disappears in the murky waters of political decisions. Looking at history I struggle to find anybody who actually built and maintained a system like that. You asked: "I'm not totally opposed to social democracy as a tactic, and I would need to know more particulars about precisely what is the goal here. Labour installed - then what? Social programmes preserved despite a dead economy? Paving the way for an extreme-left takeover? There are many ways it could go awry."What is significant here on the momentum unofficial forum is that currently the whole world is in the grip of neoliberalism as a right doctrine on steroids that the state, supernational organisms, the law, and most perniciously the media, the arts and the culture have employed to make people obedient victims with Stockholm Syndrome. That's the right translated in reality based on the idealized "meritocracy" of the unfettered market: and what it eventually came to, is an extreme kind of fascism but where people can't for the most part figure out what's going on because there's too much shopping to do: bribery of their animal instincts. This article describes how it happens, by George Monbiot: www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiotFirst this cancer needs to be reversed lest the whole planet dies, and it looks like with Corbyn Labour identifies the problem correctly and can reverse it. A figure of political integrity in a political climate of extreme deception and eugenics like policies. To further answer: I don't see a dead economy here. I see huge productivity for the 1% and the mass just forced to labour harder and harder. The world economy has been expanding but on a mass enslavement model which is why it's turned against us. A predicament: human thriving instincts turned against them, their efforts reinforce the power of those above. I am not a bleeding heart but I feel sorry to see the position they're in; although it also enrages to see how much they defend it.
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Post by stevedtrm on Apr 27, 2016 15:05:54 GMT
I've opened a thread for disambiguation of the word "fascist".
In it i make the case for fascism in essence being the same thing as authoritarianism.
And therefore i'd see fascism as a social, economic and political ideal, not a personal one. and totally distinct from machism and whatever "honor" means.
I've opened a thread for that, too.
But the point is that fascism, like any principle or tool or method, has effects, gains and liabilities for the user and subscriber.
So a person might find a use for authoriatarianism, for example, as a goal in military personell to enahnce obedience.
And if that obedience improved the life of the nation or the individual in question then that person might be considered to be just and laudable in using it.
As in all other cases, the political always becomes the personal when analysed at the most fundamental level. Collective pleasure is only a function of individual pleasures.
Steven.
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Post by bloodemperortim on Apr 30, 2016 14:47:14 GMT
To Mara: There are plenty of examples which near enough conform, and from which meritocracy as a concept emerged. It's historical/biological foundation is the Indo-European/Germanic peoples, concepts like truth-telling (no sanction to liars, indeed execution of them), honour (mutual insurance) and meritocracy (if the leader wasn't a great warrior, he wouldn't make it very long). As far as idealism, everyone must posit some ideal, but in means I'm a realist. The social constructivism, anti-realism and socio-economic determinism of the left I would say are much less realistic as sustainable systems. (Apologies for the length but it also serves as my first pass on this topic for this forum) As far as the pure right-wing goes, it's anti-capitalist believe it or not. They disdain the bourgeoisie from above, bemoaning the absence of aristocracy, while the left disdain the bourgeoisie from below, bemoaning the presence of rulers. The right-wing argument against neoliberalism is that its internationalist capitalism liquidates culture. I tend to agree; the democracy of the dollar only furthers materialist mediocrity. However, I am pro-capitalism in terms of an economic stratum since you get into a real mess without the price mechanism, capital accumulation, division of labour etc. This is a very important point, though: capitalism and neoliberalism are not the same thing. Those without the instincts or background to correctly parse the two will be making a grievous error, but I see it a hell of a lot from the left. Capitalism is just an optimisation of human effort, subject to a prevailing culture and political dispensation. A piece, not a whole. Neoliberalism is supposedly about greater economic freedom, but in reality it is a looting strategy coming directly from the globalists. What capitalist besides a crony is a fan of the IMF, for example? The IMF is a globalist org. When the globalists want to exterminate a people, they give them communism or some form of socialism, knowing those systems are incapable of generating wealth. But it’s impossible to extract wealth from that scenario, so they must begrudgingly take steps to free up the market, but making certain that the regulatory framework is in place so they can quickly suck up all that wealth. That’s what the IMF is for, really, to insert that regulatory framework that allows them to suck up the new wealth from freed up markets. It’s a merger of state and corporate power (what silly leftists refer to as fascism, but are wrong). The corporations get special privileges, everyone else gets just enough leeway to make some bread and be grateful. Select special interests who are on the side of the system get to enjoy it and take their wealth offshore. So of course, it relies on state power, not markets. They just know they need markets to generate wealth, but it’s carefully controlled. I mean, the very symbol of neoliberalism, the NHS being privatised, is the state having monopoly of a commons, and then transferring it to their select cronies. Someone tell me what exactly is ‘free market’ about that. Very important also, is that you may notice that taxes continue to go up, total public spending has only continued to rocket skyward, and interventionism in the economy is enormous. Also, try to find a genuine free-market radical in a government economic position – can’t do it. It cannot be said that this is ideological ‘free-marketism’. In fact I couldn’t think of a better way to trash the free market in the public’s eyes than this. Leftists will uncritically lap it up, unfortunately. Neoliberalism therefore, is really just crony-capitalism plus globalism. The market cannot work due to all the perverse incentives, distorted price signals, corporate welfare etc. I feel I need to get into other strands detailing the overall economic decline of the last ten years, but that will get very dense. It has more to do with printing money and vastly increasing debt than anything to do with freeing markets. The role of devaluation of currency in impoverishment is critical but the left never brings it up. Also, I should analyse the tenets of neoliberalism a bit to separate out biases. These seem pretty good definitions, I’ll use them: www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=3761) The rule of the market. The reality is that the market does not rule, the state does. We require the market for wealth generation. The end to which that wealth is turned depends on who is in charge. Currently the globalist system sucks up the wealth, it is their tool. If it was our tool, things would look different. For example, you cannot possibly pay for welfare programmes without first generating wealth. 2) Cutting public expenditure. One may notice that public expenditure and national debt are higher than ever. Overall, it’s a good thing to make cuts instead of increasing the debt. Short-term pain, long-term gain. But if, as is currently happening, you make cuts while still spending incredibly, there’s no net positive there. It’s just short and long term pain. 3) Deregulation. Deregulation is just another form of regulation. There are still massive regulations. The deregulation is highly selective. It’s a meaningless term really. 4) Privatization. The very word ‘private-isation’ implies an action, an action taken by the state. It doesn’t ever ‘get out of the way’, it takes a positive action: handing infrastructure to private interests, either already its cronies, or become its cronies in exchange for privileges. It’s just another form of industry capture. While nationalised, there are price controls (paid for with taxes and debt, but not directly felt by the consumer as price). Once those price controls are relaxed, the market price is felt. That would be fine if taxes were lower, since you’d have more money to spend. Except, things are privatised without taxes being cut, so there’s no benefit. In addition, the market price is itself distorted by government policy. For example, in private renting, government rent controls only serve to drive up the price of the remaining rental homes. Take away rent control, and suddenly you’re paying way more than before. This isn’t even mentioning how people are impoverished by currency devaluation because the government keep printing money. 5) Eliminating the concept of public goods and replacing it with individual responsibility. I’m a strong individualist, but not in favour of pervasive atomism. You can’t escape public good – commons – but individual responsibility is essential to the maintenance of these commons. Non-participatory commons are an oxymoron. To do nothing to defend them should mean no dividends. But what interests me here is that leftists will always bemoan the selfishness of neoliberalism. Which is silly, since everyone is self-interested. Are we to believe the dictatorship of the proletariat is an altruist movement? The left is most assuredly self-interested, let’s all be honest about it. Positing your own stance as the default reality and others’ as abberations is for religious types.
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